[ { "start": 0.0, "end": 3.247, "text": "Here is Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 3.267, "end": 3.949, "text": "Welcome everybody.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 3.969, "end": 10.924, "text": "I hope you are all doing very well because we have a very, very special episode for you today.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 11.044, "end": 14.993, "text": "We are talking about cryptocurrencies for the entire show.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 15.013, "end": 16.175, "text": "Now don't turn the channel.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 16.276, "end": 17.699, "text": "Don't don't move the dial.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 18.581, "end": 20.084, "text": "Stay with us.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 20.064, "end": 26.614, "text": "I have to say I used to have an audible groaning sound in response to people that would try to talk to me about crypto.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 26.634, "end": 28.577, "text": "Hey Maggie, what do you think about this Bitcoin?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 28.617, "end": 38.692, "text": "I just bought a bunch of Bitcoin and I would audibly groan, roll my eyes and start mumbling about central banks like some old fuddy duddy who happens to be an economist.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 38.712, "end": 41.576, "text": "We're going to dispel some myths about crypto.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 41.636, "end": 44.12, "text": "We're going to explain what it is, how it works.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 44.581, "end": 49.588, "text": "We're going to get into some to some moral questions about is it really a force for good?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 49.568, "end": 51.652, "text": "What are the potentials for abuses?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 51.692, "end": 53.797, "text": "What are the corruption potentials?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 54.197, "end": 62.334, "text": "How does Bitcoin, a specific type of cryptocurrency, or at least the network on which you buy the token known as a Bitcoin?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 63.035, "end": 63.897, "text": "More on that in a second.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 64.959, "end": 67.103, "text": "How does it differ from other cryptocurrencies?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 67.184, "end": 71.332, "text": "What the hell is the difference between a meme coin and a stable coin?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 71.312, "end": 74.155, "text": "Do they all pose the same sorts of moral questions?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 74.235, "end": 76.237, "text": "We have amazing guests.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 76.677, "end": 79.881, "text": "These are going to be longer interviews so that we can really get into it.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 79.961, "end": 88.169, "text": "I know you all have been just as annoyed as I have from time to time when I have to hurry my guests along because we've got somebody else coming in not to worry today.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 88.609, "end": 92.373, "text": "It's complicated and we've got plenty of time to get into it all.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 92.994, "end": 99.3, "text": "In the second hour of this program, I'm going to be joined by the former White House Council", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 99.28, "end": 100.242, "text": "ethics lawyer.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 100.442, "end": 110.524, "text": "Yeah, this was the top dog in the White House responsible for advising the president as well as his staff about various ethical matters.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 111.045, "end": 115.053, "text": "He did this for a number of years under George W. Bush.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 115.113, "end": 115.314, "text": "G.W.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 116.396, "end": 118.42, "text": "His name is Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 118.4, "end": 120.103, "text": "He's going to be joining me at five o'clock.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 120.124, "end": 126.456, "text": "We're going to talk about the evolution of opportunities for corruption, the current legal landscape.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 126.557, "end": 132.348, "text": "What does all this mean in terms of these technological advances and specifically crypto?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 132.368, "end": 135.335, "text": "So Richard's going to be here to help us all understand that.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 135.816, "end": 140.004, "text": "But we got to start to begin the beginning with the basics.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 139.984, "end": 148.204, "text": "And folks, I ain't no expert about this, so I'm gonna need some help and your patience for those of you who may know a good little bit more about this than I do.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 148.284, "end": 154.98, "text": "Forgive me for any dumb questions I may ask, but I figure if I don't know, maybe one of you out there also doesn't know.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 154.96, "end": 161.589, "text": "With all of that, it is really my pleasure to introduce associate professor of philosophy.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 161.749, "end": 168.699, "text": "Yes, philosophy at the University of Wyoming and a fellow with the Bitcoin Policy Institute.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 169.099, "end": 171.803, "text": "Welcome, Bradley Rettler to the Maggie Doncho.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 171.843, "end": 173.185, "text": "Thanks so much for being here, Brad.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 174.026, "end": 175.048, "text": "Thank you for having me.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 175.088, "end": 181.156, "text": "Also, Homestead High School graduate class of 2000.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 181.136, "end": 182.418, "text": "back up in the Badger state.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 182.738, "end": 189.809, "text": "Yes, homegrown native son joining us here, which is makes it all the more special.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 190.31, "end": 210.5, "text": "You teach on all kinds of including intro philosophy classes, which I think you should get a gold star for because I know I struggled in my intro fill classes, but about metaphysics and religion and culture, critical thinking, implicit biases, but you also have", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 210.48, "end": 214.886, "text": "this growing body of work that specifically focuses on Bitcoin.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 214.907, "end": 215.968, "text": "So let's start here, Bradley.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 216.349, "end": 219.754, "text": "How the hell does a philosopher get interested in Bitcoin?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 219.874, "end": 227.465, "text": "They seem like two things that most people would not expect two areas of study to intersect.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 229.127, "end": 237.279, "text": "For me, it goes back to the time I spent between living in Brookfield and living in Mequon, where I lived in Singapore.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 237.299, "end": 240.404, "text": "And in on the weekends, I would", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 240.384, "end": 254.353, "text": "Go out shopping with the family and there were these lines of people stretched out the door waiting to send money back home international remittances to their families and they were paying 15 20 25 percent to", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 254.393, "end": 254.454, "text": "the", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 254.534, "end": 257.54, "text": "companies that would facilitate these and people would have to walk", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 257.52, "end": 262.649, "text": "get the money, carry it home in cash, hoping that nobody else knew that they were carrying all this cash.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 263.049, "end": 269.701, "text": "And so when I heard about Bitcoin, I thought this is a way of simplifying international transactions.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 269.721, "end": 272.766, "text": "People can receive it without anyone knowing they don't have to travel to get it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 273.307, "end": 276.352, "text": "This is going to revolutionize cross border payments.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 276.412, "end": 278.916, "text": "And it just kind of went from there.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 279.088, "end": 307.236, "text": "so fascinating so much great learning or at least the impetus to learning happens when you travel if you are blessed enough fortunate enough to be able to do that you get to see something that's totally different you're like hmm wonder what that's all about right a great great origin story about this so let's what is a cryptocurrency how does it relate to blockchain is blockchain separate from crypto and how do they work together", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 307.536, "end": 308.758, "text": "Great questions.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 308.778, "end": 324.781, "text": "So Bitcoin was the first cryptocurrency launched in 2009 and the goal of the inventor of Bitcoin was to try to figure out how to do digital cash without intermediaries.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 325.201, "end": 329.988, "text": "So normally when we handle digital money, we have some sort of app and we're trusting", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 329.968, "end": 334.614, "text": "the people who run the app, what usually a bank, but maybe PayPal or", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 334.694, "end": 335.155, "text": "something like", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 335.175, "end": 335.375, "text": "that.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 335.715, "end": 341.923, "text": "We're trusting them to know how much we have and to be able to facilitate transactions.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 342.104, "end": 352.177, "text": "And the goal of Satoshi Nakamoto, the creator of Bitcoin, was to be able to send money electronically without needing a centralized intermediary.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 352.677, "end": 358.004, "text": "And people have had been trying to do that for a decade or so, but it never quite caught on.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 357.984, "end": 373.984, "text": "And Satoshi's idea was to use a blockchain where you would build block by block and in that way be able to prevent the biggest problem for sending money electronically without a centralized intermediary was double spending.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 374.204, "end": 375.465, "text": "So I send you money", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 375.485, "end": 375.986, "text": "and then I", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 376.086, "end": 378.529, "text": "also send the exact same money to someone else.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 378.549, "end": 383.715, "text": "And if you never talk to that person, neither of you know that I that I sent the exact same money to both of you.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 384.096, "end": 387.54, "text": "And so the goal was to try to figure out how to do this.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 387.52, "end": 392.707, "text": "without requiring someone to keep track of everyone's balances.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 392.868, "end": 406.367, "text": "And so the goal was, the solution was to have this chain that grows as each transaction comes in and is such that you can't go back and redo any of the transactions that have already happened.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 406.687, "end": 412.676, "text": "It needs to keep growing, but you need to only be able to add, never change things in the past.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 412.656, "end": 427.299, "text": "So, Satoshi uses the blockchain to do that, and cryptography is the way that users' passwords, you can think of the things as passwords, are protected so that people can't steal your money.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 428.681, "end": 438.756, "text": "So basically, how does one convert a central bank-issued bit of currency into crypto?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 438.796, "end": 441.3, "text": "You're buying units.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 441.28, "end": 443.924, "text": "of or you're buying tokens, right?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 444.004, "end": 449.432, "text": "I mean, this and the token is the Bitcoin or the Dogecoin or whatever it is, right?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 450.374, "end": 462.292, "text": "Yeah, the individual cryptocurrency systems work by and large independently from any central bank issued currency like the US dollar or the euro or the pound or something.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 462.612, "end": 467.94, "text": "And so you have to get on to the network either by trading some", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 467.92, "end": 468.862, "text": "something for it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 468.902, "end": 470.645, "text": "You could trade dollars or euros.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 470.665, "end": 471.647, "text": "You could also trade labor.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 471.727, "end": 474.211, "text": "Someone could pay you in Bitcoin for some work that you do.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 475.173, "end": 490.18, "text": "Or you could also engage in the process of mining where by verifying transactions and contributing computing power to the network, you are paid in the native asset of the network.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 491.056, "end": 492.278, "text": "It's fascinating.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 492.438, "end": 494.562, "text": "I my interest in this really piqued.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 494.622, "end": 509.247, "text": "I was speaking to a room that was ahead about 400 certified or chartered financial analysts in it and We were talking about a whole gamut of things and somebody just from the back was like 40 I was on a panel.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 509.287, "end": 511.892, "text": "What do you all think about Bitcoin and crypto?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 512.573, "end": 516.74, "text": "And again, I responded like the funny duddy economist inside", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 516.72, "end": 535.898, "text": "Well, that's all fine and good until there's a run on the currency or someone tries to effectively corner the currency, which are things that you can think about in your mind that relate to an old central bank type run system.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 535.938, "end": 539.124, "text": "And there's no", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 539.104, "end": 546.034, "text": "entity standing up and saying, like, I'll, I'll, I'll make good on your currency.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 546.635, "end": 546.835, "text": "Right.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 546.936, "end": 554.547, "text": "In other words, the very, the verifying central bank that says, yeah, that's what the dot that money is a symbol, right?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 554.607, "end": 559.294, "text": "Like, I don't actually have that we used to be tied to a gold currency aren't anymore.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 559.354, "end": 562.579, "text": "So money is just a symbol and we all just agree about what it means.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 562.639, "end": 563.46, "text": "So at least", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 563.44, "end": 581.528, "text": "pardon the use of the word here, philosophically, I could understand what crypto was, but I went, but, but, but the central banks, but, but, but the central banks and effectively central banks as tamping down massive swings in currency valuation.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 581.628, "end": 584.813, "text": "Now that has not always been successful.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 585.033, "end": 589.3, "text": "Even in the United States, you can certainly harken back to the late seventies.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 589.28, "end": 597.551, "text": "But that the point of central banks is usually write the two tradeoffs of inflation and unemployment and trying to again create stability.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 598.472, "end": 602.978, "text": "Nobody's doing that in a crypto environment.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 603.479, "end": 619.3, "text": "So if people want to engage with crypto, whether by mining, trading goods or services to be paid in crypto or by buying units with central bank issued currency,", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 619.28, "end": 630.759, "text": "Aren't they, should the baseline expectation be you will see a lot of volatility potentially in the value of the crypto?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 632.041, "end": 634.145, "text": "That very much depends on the cryptocurrency.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 634.165, "end": 640.916, "text": "So some cryptocurrencies do have foundations and boards and they have a discretionary monetary policy.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 640.896, "end": 641.276, "text": "where", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 641.316, "end": 641.477, "text": "they", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 641.517, "end": 645.581, "text": "can burn tokens and add tokens to the supply.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 645.601, "end": 647.884, "text": "Then there are other cryptocurrencies.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 647.944, "end": 652.929, "text": "So Bitcoin is one of these that does not have a discretionary monetary policy.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 653.89, "end": 656.233, "text": "Bitcoin blocks come roughly every 10 minutes.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 657.174, "end": 661.939, "text": "And with each block, there's a reward that's paid out that increases the supply of Bitcoin.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 662.4, "end": 667.705, "text": "And that supply schedule has held since 2009 and foreseeably into the future.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 667.806, "end": 670.068, "text": "So you have a supply guarantee.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 670.048, "end": 674.837, "text": "at any time you can figure out exactly how much Bitcoin there will be in the world at that time.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 675.779, "end": 679.146, "text": "But at the cost of no price guarantee at all.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 679.166, "end": 679.426, "text": "So.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 680.188, "end": 681.11, "text": "So it's interesting.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 681.17, "end": 684.857, "text": "You could see you can see the thinking here like on one angle.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 684.877, "end": 686.5, "text": "I'll attack.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 686.48, "end": 698.392, "text": "the run on the bank problem by having guaranteed supply, but that also can then make the currency fluctuate because you constantly have new issuances of the Bitcoin.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 698.893, "end": 708.663, "text": "On the other hand, people are saying I may not guarantee you supply because the guarantee of supply is what makes the discretionary monetary policy impossible to implement.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 709.123, "end": 712.106, "text": "Okay, I think we're getting there, Bradley.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 712.126, "end": 713.988, "text": "This is really helpful.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 713.968, "end": 720.917, "text": "We're gonna have to take care of a little business here, but folks, when we come back, I'm gonna talk with our guests this entire hour.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 720.977, "end": 722.724, "text": "We're gonna get into...", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 722.704, "end": 724.145, "text": "all of the nitty gritty.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 724.546, "end": 726.067, "text": "We're talking with Bradley Rutler.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 726.408, "end": 737.378, "text": "He's an associate professor of yes philosophy with a particular interest and publication focus on Bitcoin in particular, but crypto is large.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 737.878, "end": 740.341, "text": "He's with us from the University of Wyoming.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 740.661, "end": 752.212, "text": "We're exploring what crypto is, what it isn't, what positive impacts it could have in society, could wealth inequality actually be addressed in part?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 752.192, "end": 773.06, "text": "through bitcoin but also what dangers may lie ahead and how do you get as informed as you want to be about this so you can help us select elected representatives that themselves will hopefully mine pun intended all the positive attributes of crypto and block", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 773.328, "end": 782.262, "text": "Unintended the negative downside risks for society writ large We're gonna be back with Bradley in just a few minutes everybody keep it locked right here.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 782.322, "end": 782.923, "text": "I'm Maggie Don.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 782.963, "end": 785.026, "text": "This is the civic media radio network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 785.126, "end": 790.455, "text": "Welcome back everybody It is the Maggie Don show crypto special today.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 790.515, "end": 794.922, "text": "You're not gonna go want to go anywhere Stay with us the entire show.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 794.962, "end": 801.652, "text": "We have two amazing experts Helping all of us together get a little smarter about this me included", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 801.632, "end": 802.633, "text": "Boy, this was one of those.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 802.934, "end": 811.084, "text": "I get nervous like I'm taking an exam and I haven't prepared enough what I'm talking to people that know a whole bunch more about all stuff that I just don't know.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 811.344, "end": 813.487, "text": "That's my guess to start the show today.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 813.787, "end": 815.069, "text": "His name is Bradley Rutler.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 815.369, "end": 822.037, "text": "He's an associate professor of philosophy with a focus on Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies with the University of Wyoming.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 822.057, "end": 823.119, "text": "Welcome back to the program.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 823.139, "end": 825.081, "text": "Bradley, really glad to have you here.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 825.121, "end": 827.364, "text": "You in the last segment, you.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 827.344, "end": 830.57, "text": "basically gave us the building blocks of what crypto is.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 831.192, "end": 837.244, "text": "And there are some key distinctions between Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, which we started to get into.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 837.284, "end": 847.364, "text": "Bitcoin, of course, the most widely heard of, I think the Bitcoin most widely used, better around forever.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 847.344, "end": 875.044, "text": "It's seen incredible value increases and some volatility but value increases since what was it 2009 tell us again, you know like when we start to look at different crypto currencies Why is Bitcoin always the the sort of well if we're talking about crypto you're talking about Bitcoin not just because it was first but why is there such a focus on Bitcoin and how does it How is it different from other cryptos?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 875.376, "end": 888.725, "text": "Bitcoin, as you said, was the first one and other cryptocurrencies came along to do things differently than Bitcoin, either to have higher supply or more discretion or things like that.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 889.587, "end": 891.732, "text": "And also to try to make money.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 891.852, "end": 893.716, "text": "People invented these things.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 893.696, "end": 896.34, "text": "and they traded them early on for Bitcoin.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 896.86, "end": 905.893, "text": "If you wanted to get in early on some of these offerings of other coins, they would accept your Bitcoin and then they would give you some of the coin that they were making.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 906.875, "end": 910.159, "text": "Bitcoin is also interesting because it's neutral.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 910.64, "end": 916.308, "text": "So before Satoshi even launched the network, they announced that they were going to do it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 916.288, "end": 921.414, "text": "They told everyone how to mine, how to be involved, how to acquire it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 922.295, "end": 934.169, "text": "And then from the very beginning, Satoshi was doing what everyone else has had to do from the very beginning of Bitcoin, which is use computing power to do the mining, which then results in the awarding of the new Bitcoin.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 935.15, "end": 937.193, "text": "Other cryptocurrencies have taken different approaches.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 937.653, "end": 943.3, "text": "Instead of mining, they'll do something like staking, where you have some of the cryptocurrency and you.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 943.28, "end": 944.221, "text": "sort of offer", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 944.241, "end": 944.321, "text": "it", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 944.481, "end": 954.232, "text": "as your proof that you're invested in the network and then you will get new issuances of the token in proportion to how much you already have.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 954.833, "end": 967.768, "text": "So lots of different opportunities for changing different aspects of the network, whether it's the size of the blocks or the amount of the currency or the method by which the blockchain is protected.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 969.049, "end": 971.652, "text": "It's fascinating and in some ways it just", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 971.632, "end": 993.348, "text": "you know, in my head, because I've done so much corporate law for so long, it sounds like all of the different evolutions and innovations that happen sort of in like corporate mergers and takeovers and shareholders and owners, those are all concepts that I'm hearing you describe, but in context of again,", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 993.328, "end": 1019.22, "text": "issuing a currency and certainly when I start thinking about well you're using one commodity to buy another my econ brain goes well that's a derivative product and now I have to be thinking out the valuations of two things and now these things are coming together very briefly and I know you've written a little bit about this I don't want to get down the the the rabbit hole too far here but", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1019.2, "end": 1035.081, "text": "There is discussion within the landscape of people talking about cryptocurrencies about basically financial derivative products and how is that going to work if the underlying currency is a cryptocurrency.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1035.141, "end": 1036.804, "text": "Can you just speak to that really briefly?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1038.125, "end": 1043.172, "text": "That, I'm assuming, adds a whole layer of", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1043.152, "end": 1047.477, "text": "regulatory questions, you know, volatility questions.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1047.937, "end": 1049.339, "text": "As a philosopher, is it good?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1049.359, "end": 1049.92, "text": "Is it bad?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1049.94, "end": 1050.46, "text": "How does it work?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1051.681, "end": 1058.669, "text": "It's going to get much more complicated, much more quickly if you're looking at more sophisticated financial products and derivatives.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1059.67, "end": 1072.004, "text": "Yeah, when the Bitcoin network was introduced, it was explicitly in the very first Bitcoin block, Satoshi included a headline, which is times", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1072.016, "end": 1079.567, "text": "the date of the block, January 2009, Chancellor on Brink of Second bailout for banks.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1079.587, "end": 1085.556, "text": "Satoshi was very explicit that this was supposed to be an alternative to the way that the financial system works.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1086.097, "end": 1086.197, "text": "And", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1086.277, "end": 1094.97, "text": "now we're seeing 15 years later, the very same financial instruments come into this space that was originally set up to be apart from them.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1095.551, "end": 1099.156, "text": "And I know there's a lot of work being done, especially...", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1099.136, "end": 1107.626, "text": "this week, the crypto week in Congress of passing various cryptocurrency related bills.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1108.267, "end": 1110.79, "text": "And I have not read the hundreds of pages that", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1110.83, "end": 1111.231, "text": "are", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1111.251, "end": 1111.331, "text": "out.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1111.792, "end": 1118.26, "text": "But yeah, I mean, one of the things that needs to be decided is are all of these securities are any of them securities?", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1118.76, "end": 1122.004, "text": "What do we look for in the various features that would make them one or the other?", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1122.425, "end": 1126.33, "text": "What financial products are permissible to do on crypto?", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1126.85, "end": 1128.292, "text": "What are", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1128.272, "end": 1130.374, "text": "banks allowed to do with crypto?", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1130.635, "end": 1132.176, "text": "What products can they offer?", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1133.218, "end": 1137.102, "text": "And as a philosopher, I have no guidance on any of those things.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1139.425, "end": 1141.167, "text": "So yeah, I have to leave it there.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1142.268, "end": 1153.06, "text": "Well, one thing I would suggest people think about is these different governance structures for crypto is very intimidating.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1153.04, "end": 1168.376, "text": "But those governance structures, one of the things that people, it may sound a little dry when I talk about it on the show, but I often talk about governance structures and that the governance structure itself will determine whether or not you see good outcomes or not.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1168.957, "end": 1177.306, "text": "Almost universally, and I don't care if I'm talking about a board of trustees at a university, a board of directors, or the governance structure for crypto.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1177.726, "end": 1179.188, "text": "If you want to know", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1179.168, "end": 1204.596, "text": "you know if a governance structure is quote good or not look at the outcomes that are being incented incentivized within the system if those are actually the outcomes that you're seeing because of how that is regulated and governed then that's a quote good system the question is do you agree with those objectives and incentives that the system has been created to promote", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1204.576, "end": 1206.078, "text": "We're going to continue this discussion.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1206.118, "end": 1211.406, "text": "We'll get into the difference between stable coins and meme coins and all that good stuff on the other side.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1212.027, "end": 1216.353, "text": "I've got crypto expert and philosopher King Bradley Rettler with me.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1216.413, "end": 1217.074, "text": "Don't go anywhere.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1217.114, "end": 1217.715, "text": "I'm Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1217.735, "end": 1219.838, "text": "You're listening to the Civic Media Radio Network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1220.058, "end": 1220.619, "text": "I'm Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1220.659, "end": 1222.782, "text": "You're listening to the Civic Media Radio Network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1222.802, "end": 1226.126, "text": "It's crypto day here on the Maggie Dawn show.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1226.787, "end": 1232.916, "text": "We're talking about crypto not to bore you, not to get into all the technical detail.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1232.896, "end": 1236.183, "text": "Not to give you a quiz about can you write blockchain?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1236.223, "end": 1237.245, "text": "We're not going to do that to you.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1237.285, "end": 1249.972, "text": "But just so we all have a bit of a better understanding about some of the questions that our elected officials are grappling with and what their ramifications might be for.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1249.952, "end": 1252.395, "text": "I don't know the health of the U.S.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1252.415, "end": 1263.889, "text": "economy, about your job future, about whether or not you get to start a small business and who do you borrow money from, all those kinds of things, especially also wealth inequality.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1264.55, "end": 1276.004, "text": "Right before we get there, Bradley, I did not know that there was such a thing called a meme coin, nor did I know there was a stable coin until I saw it in the news recently related to", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1275.984, "end": 1282.372, "text": "one particular guy in particular, who for purposes of this segment can remain a little nameless.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1282.412, "end": 1297.892, "text": "I'm talking about Trump, of course, issuing a stable coin to help basically be it look like some kind of bridge financing or or again, some sort of financing arrangement with a foreign sovereign.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1297.872, "end": 1299.394, "text": "funded entity.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1300.535, "end": 1307.022, "text": "He issued meme coins right before his inauguration for both he and his wife Melania.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1307.722, "end": 1310.105, "text": "And I was like, I've never heard these words.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1310.345, "end": 1312.387, "text": "Is it the same as a cryptocurrency?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1312.427, "end": 1315.691, "text": "I'm assuming not because they have different names.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1316.331, "end": 1321.076, "text": "Help me understand Bitcoin versus meme coin versus stablecoin.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1322.358, "end": 1322.598, "text": "Sure.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1323.379, "end": 1324.5, "text": "Surprisingly.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1324.48, "end": 1337.134, "text": "These things are all cryptocurrencies in that cryptocurrencies are digital money that use cryptography to secure the network in some way and all of these two.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1337.754, "end": 1340.097, "text": "So Bitcoin comes along as the first one.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1341.198, "end": 1343.2, "text": "Then other coins come along.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1343.881, "end": 1350.768, "text": "Dogecoin, for example, changes a few things about Bitcoin, moves the zeros over so you could have billions and billions of it", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1350.808, "end": 1351.249, "text": "in the", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1351.269, "end": 1351.449, "text": "supply.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1352.11, "end": 1354.212, "text": "Litecoin makes.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1354.192, "end": 1355.554, "text": "blocks faster.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1356.516, "end": 1359.381, "text": "And every two minutes, I think instead of every 10 minutes.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1359.401, "end": 1362.506, "text": "So altering some parameters, these are all cryptocurrencies.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1363.267, "end": 1369.778, "text": "But of those three, Dogecoin is a meme coin, because it has this cute little dog associated", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1369.838, "end": 1369.978, "text": "with", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1370.058, "end": 1370.82, "text": "it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1370.84, "end": 1372.663, "text": "And people are using it to have fun.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1373.544, "end": 1379.053, "text": "Some people then because it's so much fun, it's going up in value as more people are using it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1379.354, "end": 1380.676, "text": "And they begin to treat it", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1380.656, "end": 1383.84, "text": "although it's a meme coin as a serious investment.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1383.86, "end": 1387.245, "text": "They think, I think people are going to want to acquire this because it's funny.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1387.846, "end": 1392.933, "text": "So I'm going to put a significant portion of my assets into this thing that's just supposed to be funny.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1393.955, "end": 1401.385, "text": "So what normally distinguishes meme coins from other cryptocurrency projects is meme coins aren't trying to solve a specific problem.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1401.405, "end": 1403.768, "text": "They're not doing anything interesting with governance.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1404.269, "end": 1406.372, "text": "What they're doing is trying to have fun.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1406.864, "end": 1415.194, "text": "Stable coins, by contrast, are supposed to have their values pegged to some currency, usually the US dollar.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1415.214, "end": 1417.116, "text": "And they do that in a variety of ways.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1417.696, "end": 1429.23, "text": "Often they own US treasuries and other small interest bearing, but very risk-free or very risk-minimized.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1429.25, "end": 1429.89, "text": "Yeah, things.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1430.491, "end": 1434.836, "text": "And then they take your dollars.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1434.816, "end": 1442.507, "text": "convert it to their cryptocurrency and you have exactly as many stable tokens as you had dollars.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1443.288, "end": 1447.294, "text": "And they make money because you gave them your money and you're going to invest it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1447.714, "end": 1451.059, "text": "You don't get any yield from using the stable token.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1451.119, "end": 1455.725, "text": "They get the yield and so they can afford to give you exactly as much as you gave them.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1456.366, "end": 1460.452, "text": "Stable coins are supposed to be ways to transact.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1460.432, "end": 1461.393, "text": "using dollars.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1462.115, "end": 1467.823, "text": "So suppose you are worried about volatility, they're not volatile, at least not any more volatile than the US dollar is.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1468.364, "end": 1471.609, "text": "They also can bridge between cryptocurrencies.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1471.629, "end": 1478.2, "text": "So you can trade your Bitcoin, let's say for a stablecoin and then trade that for a different cryptocurrency.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1478.22, "end": 1478.26, "text": "So", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1478.28, "end": 1479.942, "text": "they operate as bridges between.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1481.705, "end": 1482.426, "text": "Fascinating.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1482.606, "end": 1488.756, "text": "So my unsophisticated tech currency brain was", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1488.736, "end": 1518.5, "text": "Sounds like kind of getting it right about what the the stablecoin was going to get used for So again, the the reason that someone would go to the trouble to create a stablecoin is that the owner operators can effectively they scrape all the yield that they can accrue from whatever Central Bank issued currency the stablecoin is pegged to", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1518.48, "end": 1524.73, "text": "Have I said that right from the investment of that or the reinvestment into other crypto or whatever it is?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1525.751, "end": 1526.552, "text": "That's exactly right.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1526.973, "end": 1538.491, "text": "And the their ability to do that is exactly as risky as what they're using the inflows to buy.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1538.811, "end": 1538.931, "text": "So", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1538.971, "end": 1539.652, "text": "if they're buying", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1539.713, "end": 1544.58, "text": "highly risky assets, they might end up having fewer.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1544.56, "end": 1545.482, "text": "US dollars", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1545.502, "end": 1546.143, "text": "dollars they", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1546.183, "end": 1548.306, "text": "have issued stable coins and that", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1548.567, "end": 1561.028, "text": "so they have to manage in other words it would be folks a little bit a stable coin issuer an operator would be a little bit like a bank in that instance", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1561.008, "end": 1574.691, "text": "where you have deposited monies, you want to get it back, you got to hope that the banks going to be good, pay out correctly on whatever you, at least in your account ledger, are said to be owed.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1576.334, "end": 1576.975, "text": "Fascinating.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1578.157, "end": 1587.012, "text": "The idea of using it, therefore, as a bridge to other cryptos or other transactions in different cryptos.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1586.992, "end": 1589.076, "text": "makes a lot of sense or more sense.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1589.096, "end": 1590.379, "text": "Thank you for that Bradley.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1590.86, "end": 1597.252, "text": "Let's get into some of the um you put them as moral or philosophical question philosophical questions.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1597.593, "end": 1607.412, "text": "I as I was reading some of your work thought of them more simply as well what what goods could come of this what better outcomes for people could come of this", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1607.392, "end": 1621.75, "text": "And also what perils exist, what what potentials for abuse, either abuse of people or abuse by the very, very knowledgeable elites and those that run these kinds of platforms and currencies.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1621.81, "end": 1623.452, "text": "So let's start on the positive end.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1623.492, "end": 1635.908, "text": "You began by telling a story about, hey, folks that move to do work to feed their families back in another country and another currency had to pay almost", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1635.888, "end": 1640.174, "text": "nearly criminal rates to try to send the money that they earn back to their family.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1640.234, "end": 1642.037, "text": "This was a workaround.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1642.397, "end": 1651.15, "text": "What other positive or capital markets democratizing impacts can cryptocurrencies have?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1653.313, "end": 1660.544, "text": "When we look at the rate of adoption globally for, my expertise is mostly in Bitcoin.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1660.564, "end": 1663.508, "text": "So when we look at the rate of adoption globally for Bitcoin,", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1663.488, "end": 1672.021, "text": "The countries at which per capita it's being adopted the fastest are the ones that have the least trust in banks", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1672.621, "end": 1672.762, "text": "that", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1672.822, "end": 1677.989, "text": "have the least access to banks that have the least access to the internet and", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1678.09, "end": 1678.45, "text": "other things", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1678.47, "end": 1678.791, "text": "like that.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1678.871, "end": 1685.04, "text": "So India, Nigeria, Indonesia, Vietnam, Ukraine, Philippines.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1685.781, "end": 1691.97, "text": "These are all places where Bitcoin adoption is rising more quickly than in other places.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1692.571, "end": 1693.332, "text": "So.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1693.312, "end": 1703.107, "text": "Bitcoin gives you the opportunity to store value in a way that other actors can't debase.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1703.648, "end": 1716.227, "text": "A lot of these places have monetary policies that are at the discretion of people who have very often in the past taken advantage of people that have declared the old currency null and void.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1716.288, "end": 1718.872, "text": "You have 10 days to trade it all in.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1718.972, "end": 1721.796, "text": "We're issuing a new currency and", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1721.776, "end": 1723.759, "text": "the amount you can trade in is capped.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1724.139, "end": 1734.494, "text": "So people in these other countries are very familiar with saving up and then losing their savings due to some action by the people in authority.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1735.515, "end": 1741.403, "text": "So one of the great things about a cryptocurrency like Bitcoin is that there's no central authority.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1741.744, "end": 1742.625, "text": "Nobody's in charge.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1743.206, "end": 1744.688, "text": "Nobody can print extra.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1744.728, "end": 1746.671, "text": "Nobody can confiscate what you have.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1747.211, "end": 1750.596, "text": "Nobody can refuse to allow you to transact with it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1750.576, "end": 1758.369, "text": "And so people in these other countries feel much safer using Bitcoin than they do using government-backed currencies or banks.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1759.391, "end": 1777.3, "text": "Yeah, certainly it's not a hard line of logic to follow that if I or my parents or grandparents went through a point of political history in my country of origin where their bank account was seized or their currency wasn't honored,", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1777.28, "end": 1798.94, "text": "or they had such rapid inflation that the currency essentially became valueless or substantially decreased in value in a period of time that Americans have not experienced that kind of inflation, that becomes a highly desirable solution to that sort of problem.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1799.721, "end": 1801.284, "text": "On the flip side,", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1801.392, "end": 1810.523, "text": "What are some of the concerns, especially when we think about like wealth and income inequality access to regulated banking systems?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1811.024, "end": 1813.146, "text": "So this is on a much bigger system level.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1813.166, "end": 1816.15, "text": "And then I want to specifically ask you about corruption opportunities.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1818.573, "end": 1831.028, "text": "The biggest risk with cryptocurrencies is that they can run outside of the rails of the traditional financial system, which central banks and governments have spent.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1831.008, "end": 1841.76, "text": "decades to centuries, changing and modifying in order to exert, if you're in a good country, proper oversight.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1842.52, "end": 1842.721, "text": "If you're", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1842.741, "end": 1846.124, "text": "in a bad country, the ability to exercise corruption.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1847.366, "end": 1860.66, "text": "But if you are in a country where you are pretty happy with the way that your financial institutions are regulated, maybe they're among the best, then it gets more difficult to see the inflows", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1860.64, "end": 1863.884, "text": "into cryptocurrencies and how it's moving around.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1864.685, "end": 1870.453, "text": "The ledgers themselves of each of these cryptocurrencies just have addresses and balances.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1870.933, "end": 1871.094, "text": "They", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1871.134, "end": 1872.075, "text": "don't have names.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1872.555, "end": 1874.738, "text": "They don't have memo lines.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1874.758, "end": 1877.221, "text": "You know, this, this I bought a yacht with this or something.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1877.282, "end": 1877.842, "text": "Right, right.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1877.862, "end": 1882.508, "text": "So it's hard to know who's paying who and how much they're paying and what they're paying for.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1883.429, "end": 1888.516, "text": "And if you're worried about a lot of illicit activity happening.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1888.496, "end": 1891.866, "text": "than this is an opportunity for that to happen.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1892.027, "end": 1894.494, "text": "Much the same way that physical cash is.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1894.615, "end": 1897.243, "text": "You can't see every cash transaction.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1898.326, "end": 1900.633, "text": "In cryptocurrencies, you can see every transaction.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1900.673, "end": 1902.98, "text": "You just can't know that much about them.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 1903.568, "end": 1932.388, "text": "That's fascinating to me that basically every transaction ever in the history of Bitcoin if you had infinite time you could sit down and and track it all back like that that record that is the ledger it exists But what does that mean when people can transact anonymously and my head goes to and starts thinking about especially For an adversary", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1932.368, "end": 1951.932, "text": "both state and non-state actors attempting to frankly buy influence of Whether it's elected officials here or anywhere right that that becomes so Possible because it is anonymized and how would you prove straight up pay to play?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1951.992, "end": 1961.444, "text": "If they're all transacting in Bitcoin like I don't know how I would do that because how unless I catch you withdrawing the money or catch you", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1961.424, "end": 1969.535, "text": "with effectively the password for that particular Bitcoin account, I'm not proving that that's yours.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1969.635, "end": 1970.236, "text": "I can't.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1970.476, "end": 1988.02, "text": "That's really challenging, especially given the fact that I think we exist in a moment where there is significantly less ability under our US system of laws to regulate money in politics.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1988.0, "end": 1992.505, "text": "Very briefly, Brad, you mentioned a few items we have about 30 seconds.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1992.806, "end": 1996.951, "text": "What are a few of the regulatory items that Congress is currently struggling with?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1998.272, "end": 2001.216, "text": "Congress is looking at stablecoin legislation.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2001.456, "end": 2017.876, "text": "They're looking at what banks can do with cryptocurrency, what products they can offer to people who might want to have some Bitcoin but don't want to hold it themselves and maybe don't want to buy an ETF or something like that.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2017.856, "end": 2024.863, "text": "looking at maybe some de minimis tax exemptions for transactions.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2024.963, "end": 2033.992, "text": "One of the things that makes it hard to spend Bitcoin is that for even buying a cup of coffee, you have to figure out how much did I buy the Bitcoin for?", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2034.293, "end": 2040.359, "text": "How much did I sell it for the cup of coffee and pay capital gains tax?", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2040.379, "end": 2044.203, "text": "The discussion continues on the other side on the civic media radio network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2044.223, "end": 2045.604, "text": "Welcome back, everybody.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2045.904, "end": 2057.805, "text": "It is crypto day here on the Maggie Don show and we have been joined by a very special guest the associate professor of Philosophy yes philosophy at the University of Wyoming.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2057.825, "end": 2069.024, "text": "He has written extensively about Bitcoin in particular, but cryptocurrency More generally and he's got a book out on this you have to go check it out.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2069.064, "end": 2071.108, "text": "It's called resistance money", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2071.088, "end": 2073.55, "text": "a philosophical case for bitcoin.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2073.57, "end": 2074.511, "text": "It was published in 2024.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2075.653, "end": 2087.925, "text": "Also, Mr. Rutler published The Problem of Divine Personality in 2024, as well for all of you egghead philosophers out there that need a new book to read.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2088.005, "end": 2093.75, "text": "We'll talk divine, the divine personality at another time.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2093.81, "end": 2095.252, "text": "Brad, let's get back.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2095.732, "end": 2099.396, "text": "I gave you a little bit of a big question with not", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2099.376, "end": 2101.199, "text": "Big amount of minutes to answer it.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2101.259, "end": 2126.26, "text": "So let me start again For people that are listening and they're starting to get their heads around like maybe there's some good that can happen with Bitcoin There are some things to be concerned about What are the questions that Congress is currently grappling with right now about Bitcoin and obviously we touched on this right as we were going out was It's really hard to tax cryptocurrency", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2126.24, "end": 2142.361, "text": "And and the the specter of it the increase of its use in terms of government revenues while they were talking sales tax property taxes That should be pretty simple, but especially income tax all kinds of questions there.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2142.401, "end": 2143.282, "text": "Tell us more about that", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2144.924, "end": 2154.036, "text": "since Very early on in the existence of Bitcoin the IRS has had rules about how to report crypto", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2154.016, "end": 2158.56, "text": "purchases and especially capital gains on crypto.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2159.201, "end": 2166.908, "text": "And it has been very different from how they treat other currencies like the pound or the euro.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2167.208, "end": 2172.333, "text": "There, if you take a trip to England, you exchange your dollars for pounds.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2172.854, "end": 2174.075, "text": "You don't spend some of those pounds.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2174.095, "end": 2175.857, "text": "You come back, you exchange them back to dollars.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2176.537, "end": 2179.84, "text": "As long as you haven't made more than like $10,000 on", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2180.361, "end": 2180.421, "text": "the", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2180.561, "end": 2183.604, "text": "transaction, you don't have to report it to the IRS.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2183.584, "end": 2191.053, "text": "With crypto, even one penny difference in valuation has to be reported and and pay taxes on.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2191.073, "end": 2198.503, "text": "So it makes very hard to use cryptocurrencies as a sort of everyday form of payment.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2199.604, "end": 2208.836, "text": "So one of the things that Congress is considering is whether to have some sort of de minimis tax exemption for people who are using cryptocurrencies.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2208.816, "end": 2214.965, "text": "as money for small transactions where they've made, let's say, less than $600 worth of profit.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2216.006, "end": 2219.772, "text": "That's the number that's been getting quoted the most.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2220.313, "end": 2228.204, "text": "They're also talking about a whole lot of other crypto issues, especially in terms of regulation.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2228.244, "end": 2231.028, "text": "They're talking about regulating.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2231.008, "end": 2235.115, "text": "cryptocurrencies with CFTC rather than the SEC.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2235.756, "end": 2258.612, "text": "There there's an anti central bank digital currency bill that's moving through so it would prevent the Federal Reserve from starting its own cryptocurrency basically a digital dollar that where you'd have a direct debit from the central bank and they're they're talking about stablecoins especially so as", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2258.592, "end": 2266.625, "text": "cryptocurrencies have become more popular, the rise of issuers of stablecoins has happened.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2266.866, "end": 2272.435, "text": "And many of the early stablecoin issuers were pretty transparent about", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2272.455, "end": 2272.936, "text": "what they were", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2272.976, "end": 2274.158, "text": "doing and how they were doing it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2274.779, "end": 2280.388, "text": "And as those numbers have risen, we've gotten more and more stablecoins and so subject", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2280.428, "end": 2281.79, "text": "less and less transparency.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2282.111, "end": 2282.872, "text": "Yeah, to", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2282.892, "end": 2285.316, "text": "the to the OCC.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2285.296, "end": 2292.186, "text": "for exactly how they're backing their staple coins and what they're doing with the money that people give them.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2292.206, "end": 2294.249, "text": "And that's the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2297.014, "end": 2314.66, "text": "How likely, how easy, if you were an intentional bad actor, a politician, how easy would it be for you to engage in pay to play, quid pro like pick your corrupt activity, right?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2314.64, "end": 2333.824, "text": "or being entirely owned by a foreign government basically through just straight up bribery and cover it up these days by simply transacting in bitcoins or even not covering it up and saying foreign governments you can buy my new cryptocurrency and issuing your own crypto.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2334.945, "end": 2335.926, "text": "Are those real threats?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2335.966, "end": 2338.529, "text": "Are those real concerns?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2338.549, "end": 2343.956, "text": "I think still by far the easiest way to cover up corruption and bribery is", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2343.936, "end": 2345.038, "text": "bagfuls of cash.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2345.578, "end": 2345.799, "text": "Yeah.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2345.819, "end": 2345.979, "text": "But if", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2345.999, "end": 2346.66, "text": "you're not if you're", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2346.68, "end": 2347.081, "text": "not cash", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2347.762, "end": 2348.343, "text": "or", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2348.383, "end": 2348.543, "text": "there's", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2348.703, "end": 2351.187, "text": "yeah or there's so much cash that you can't do it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2352.128, "end": 2354.452, "text": "You know, Bitcoin has a ledger.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2354.732, "end": 2356.074, "text": "It's public.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2356.094, "end": 2364.387, "text": "Even though there are names associated with it, there are ways of finding out for for people who are determined enough where the money is coming from.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2365.669, "end": 2370.676, "text": "So it's it's relatively hard to do large amounts of.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2370.656, "end": 2374.239, "text": "large payments in Bitcoin without people finding out.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2374.259, "end": 2387.252, "text": "But of course, you could launch your own cryptocurrency and make the blockchain not public, make it more difficult to identify who is putting money in and who's receiving it and how they're using it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2387.893, "end": 2399.524, "text": "So if you were wanting to engage in some sort of corruption or bribery using a cryptocurrency, it would be best probably to start your own rather than to use something like Bitcoin.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2400.048, "end": 2414.446, "text": "Are there cryptos out there right now that are highly untransparent and much more easily used for corrupt purposes, or even black market drug trafficking, sex trafficking, God knows what?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2415.688, "end": 2425.38, "text": "There are cryptocurrencies that are more private than Bitcoin, that use shielding or other obscurity measures to try to...", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2425.36, "end": 2427.363, "text": "make transactions even more private.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2428.144, "end": 2429.907, "text": "You know, those are good in some ways.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2430.949, "end": 2435.556, "text": "Because we have governments that are trying to identify certain groups of people and", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2435.757, "end": 2436.057, "text": "execute", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2436.097, "end": 2440.124, "text": "them, and they're using the financial industry to do that.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2440.845, "end": 2444.911, "text": "On the other hand, they by nature have to be neutral.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2445.132, "end": 2448.537, "text": "They can't only allow good people to use it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2448.698, "end": 2452.724, "text": "They also have to allow bad people to use it.", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2452.704, "end": 2457.511, "text": "What's so far is happening is that it's easier to do it with small amounts than", "speaker": "Bradley Rettler (guest)" }, { "start": 2458.833, "end": 2459.213, "text": "with large amounts.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2459.233, "end": 2463.96, "text": "That's Bradley Rutler, philosophy associate professor at the University of Wyoming.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2464.1, "end": 2469.848, "text": "As ever and always, two goods come together, security, freedom and privacy.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2470.67, "end": 2478.721, "text": "We take up the ethics of it all with Richard Painter, former chief White House ethics lawyer, next on the Maggie Don Show.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" } ]