[ { "start": 0.144, "end": 3.147, "text": "Welcome, everyone, and welcome back if you're rejoining us.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 3.528, "end": 15.462, "text": "I am thrilled to have with us for the second hour of this special program, lawyer and deep thinker, Law Professor Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 15.502, "end": 24.452, "text": "If his name sounds familiar to you, that is because Mr. Painter, Professor Painter, served as the White House", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 24.432, "end": 40.438, "text": "Chief White House ethics lawyer in the George W. Bush administration, Professor Painter considers himself, self-describes as an independent, and he is here to talk with me about corruption in government.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 41.18, "end": 51.236, "text": "And I think this is such an important topic in this moment, because again, no matter where you find yourself on the political spectrum, we universally", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 51.216, "end": 54.721, "text": "hate the corrupting influence of money in politics.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 55.462, "end": 57.425, "text": "This is a shared value that we have.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 57.605, "end": 64.896, "text": "And so it is with great humility and respect and thanks that I welcome you, Professor Painter, to the Maggie Dawn Show.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 64.956, "end": 66.058, "text": "Thank you for being here with me.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 67.079, "end": 68.561, "text": "Well, thank you for having me on the show, Maggie.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 70.184, "end": 71.906, "text": "How do you define corruption?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 72.707, "end": 78.676, "text": "And why do you think it has been so persistent and so difficult?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 78.656, "end": 83.045, "text": "to eradicate, not just in the United States, but in many, many countries.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 84.427, "end": 86.03, "text": "Well, the different forms of corruption.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 86.612, "end": 101.06, "text": "There's, of course, bribery, where a public official, whether a judge or a legislator or executive, takes money from an interested body in order to take official action and return money.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 101.04, "end": 115.935, "text": "There are also financial conflicts of interest where a judge or an elected official has a financial interest in a matter that they are deciding in an official capacity, which is in the federal government, a criminal offense for anyone in the executive branch.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 116.015, "end": 128.227, "text": "Although we have curiously exempted the president, the vice president from that statute, the members of Congress also have exempted themselves from that statutory criminal definition of corruption.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 128.287, "end": 128.948, "text": "And yet,", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 128.928, "end": 142.07, "text": "It is widely understood that a public official having a financial interest in a matter that they decide on behalf of the government is corrupt, even if it doesn't violate a criminal statute.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 142.771, "end": 145.135, "text": "So there are many different types of corruption.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 145.155, "end": 150.244, "text": "There's also a structure of justice trying to hide evidence of wrongdoing.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 150.224, "end": 158.657, "text": "that brought down Richard Nixon and the type of conduct that we've seen repeatedly, particularly in the Trump administration.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 159.919, "end": 171.117, "text": "And so the public recognizes corruption when we see it, just as the Supreme Court said, the famous pornography case, we recognize it when we see it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 171.998, "end": 176.124, "text": "But the problem is it's not always illegal corruption.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 176.505, "end": 178.388, "text": "And politicians get away with it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 178.368, "end": 181.753, "text": "The campaign finance system is, in many ways, corrupt.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 181.913, "end": 187.621, "text": "We see that billionaires and large corporations can decide who wins an election.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 188.643, "end": 197.155, "text": "And we have George Soros on the left and Elon Musk and the Koch brothers on the right influencing elections.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 197.255, "end": 200.459, "text": "Many, many Americans perceive that as corrupt, and yet the U.S.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 200.479, "end": 206.468, "text": "Supreme Court decided to sit as the United v. Federal Election Commission back in 2009.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 206.448, "end": 212.757, "text": "that money, equating money with political speech, that the money has the First Amendment right.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 213.819, "end": 224.354, "text": "And so there, once again, we see a disjuncture between what the law says is illegal and that which the public views as corrupt.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 227.239, "end": 233.668, "text": "So when we look at corruption, when the public knows it, we can see it, we can feel it.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 233.648, "end": 240.696, "text": "What are some of the downstream consequences of this very permissive legal structure?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 240.756, "end": 257.636, "text": "And I would I would offer even in those instances where we have criminally defined a type of corruption That frequently prosecutions Can fall apart they're complicated not always but that", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 257.616, "end": 263.668, "text": "Again, I don't think the public generally feels like corrupt politicians are ferreted out.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 264.931, "end": 271.525, "text": "What are some of the downstream effects, the way that it might impact you and I and just regular folks in the United States?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 271.625, "end": 273.95, "text": "How does that impact people's day to day lives?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 275.473, "end": 279.06, "text": "Well, it depends on the type of corruption.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 279.04, "end": 308.66, "text": "When we see corruption of Congress by the fossil fuel industry, which I testified about in front of the Senate Budget Committee in June of 2023, enormous amount of money coming in from fossil fuel companies to the Congress, both Democrats and Republicans, that has made it very difficult for the United States to formulate an effective policy to address global warming and the climate crisis.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 308.64, "end": 311.585, "text": "The consequences there are very, very severe.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 312.968, "end": 319.921, "text": "The worst consequences may, of course, be in the far distant future, or actually not so distant future.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 320.001, "end": 322.706, "text": "But that's just but one example.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 322.826, "end": 324.85, "text": "And the members of Congress do not take it seriously.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 324.91, "end": 332.484, "text": "Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana responded my testimony with personal attacks going after my...", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 332.496, "end": 338.504, "text": "subject matter I posted on Twitter about corruption in the Supreme Court, which is another problem we're confronting.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 339.426, "end": 346.716, "text": "And other issues, even citing a Marxist professor who had gotten in a spat with me.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 347.317, "end": 350.922, "text": "Here's John Kennedy, citing whether Marxist or try to attack me.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 350.962, "end": 351.222, "text": "Why?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 351.242, "end": 355.067, "text": "Because I exposed campaign money from fossil fuel industry.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 356.129, "end": 361.396, "text": "Two weeks ago, I testified in front of the Senate Banking Committee about another issue, cryptocurrency.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 361.376, "end": 369.61, "text": "enormous amounts of money coming in from the cryptocurrency industry in the Congress to pass legislation that supposedly will regulate cryptocurrency.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 370.471, "end": 375.34, "text": "And there were CEOs of big cryptocurrency companies sitting there with me at the witness table.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 376.462, "end": 377.443, "text": "And I pointed this out.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 377.503, "end": 382.612, "text": "I also pointed out President Trump's financial conflicts of interest there in cryptocurrency.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 382.592, "end": 384.855, "text": "his own personal financial interests.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 385.716, "end": 394.989, "text": "And once again, Senator Kennedy got so upset, he ended up concluding his five minutes of testimony by calling me a whack job.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 395.689, "end": 396.811, "text": "It was just two weeks ago.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 398.293, "end": 406.564, "text": "Obviously, the members of Congress, the senators, the members of the House and Senate are very sensitive to anyone exposing", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 406.544, "end": 415.621, "text": "their campaign contributions, their financial conflicts of interest, whether it's cryptocurrency or fossil fuel companies, the president's conflicts of interest.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 416.362, "end": 423.556, "text": "They're very sensitive to this, to the point that they're going to make it personal very quickly if you confront them.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 424.944, "end": 427.747, "text": "Folks, this is Professor Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 427.988, "end": 431.993, "text": "He is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 432.073, "end": 443.847, "text": "He is the former chief White House ethics lawyer under the George W. Bush administration and independent, self-described independent and an expert in corruption.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 444.548, "end": 446.21, "text": "What did you make Professor Painter?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 446.65, "end": 451.476, "text": "You brought up climate change and the absolute", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 451.456, "end": 455.581, "text": "direct corrupt influence of big oil's money in campaigns.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 456.362, "end": 460.948, "text": "What did you make, sir, of Donald Trump's promise in front of oil company executives?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 461.83, "end": 471.723, "text": "Just give me a huge amount of money, help me win election, and you'll make way more on the end because I'll get rid of regulations.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 471.903, "end": 478.852, "text": "And the announcement from the Trump administration that the EPA is no longer going to be addressing climate change is that", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 478.832, "end": 488.568, "text": "corruption out loud in front of us that's it right there is that one of those things that that the public can see touch and feel but the laws don't touch", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 490.231, "end": 498.404, "text": "yes it is it is all the money coming into the political campaigns from the fossil fuel industry", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 498.384, "end": 502.53, "text": "is exhibited for corruption, and that's been going on for decades.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 503.351, "end": 511.283, "text": "And now we have members of Congress and the president of the United States with a personal financial interest in some of those ventures.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 511.924, "end": 522.9, "text": "Some members of his administration have had a personal financial interest, although they at least need to divest their interest in fossil fuel companies if they're going to get involved with regulation of fossil fuel companies.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 522.88, "end": 526.385, "text": "But a lot of people come in and out of the industry.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 526.445, "end": 529.45, "text": "They're revolving door in and out of government.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 529.85, "end": 538.082, "text": "And there is a, it's quite clear that the fossil fuel industry has a lot of power in Washington Day State.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 539.184, "end": 552.724, "text": "And what that's doing is it's slowing down our ability to respond with modern technology to our energy needs and to come up with other ways other than fossil fuels to supply our energy needs.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 552.704, "end": 570.442, "text": "And it's really unfortunate because there's not only about climate change, but also economic growth, that we could have a lot more economic growth in this country if we could confront the climate change problem head on with new technology rather than bearing ourselves in the past.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 571.243, "end": 580.132, "text": "But we have a vision of energy policy that's really rooted in the mid 20th century.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 580.112, "end": 586.421, "text": "It's the energy equivalent of trying to reopen out the prison because we've seen some good movies about it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 586.481, "end": 590.948, "text": "Rather than looking forward to what the world could be like.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 591.068, "end": 596.055, "text": "And how we can grow our economy and protect our planet in the 21st century.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 597.578, "end": 604.708, "text": "Books again, this is Professor Richard Painter, former Chief White House Ethics Lawyer, Professor of Law at the University of Wisconsin.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 604.752, "end": 611.36, "text": "There's my Wisconsin bias showing at the University of Minnesota Law School.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 613.663, "end": 618.248, "text": "You talked about the fact that the law sometimes doesn't reach corruption.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 619.049, "end": 631.204, "text": "And, sir, I wanted to get your reaction to one of the Supreme Court's rulings from this past term that basically said, grabbing public officials is fine as long as you pay them after the fact, and it's not a clear...", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 631.184, "end": 632.286, "text": "quid pro quo.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 632.386, "end": 634.451, "text": "What did you make of that ruling by the Supreme Court?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 635.292, "end": 638.338, "text": "Well, that was a case involving a mayor down in Indiana.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 638.359, "end": 640.924, "text": "It was applying a federal statute.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 641.665, "end": 651.044, "text": "It basically what they're saying is the federal law can be used to prosecute a state or local government official for a gratuity.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 651.104, "end": 652.948, "text": "That's a payment after the fact.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 652.928, "end": 654.891, "text": "only the bribery statute.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 655.031, "end": 667.448, "text": "The bribery statute would only apply if there is a understanding of a quid pro quo, official action return for payment before the fact.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 667.468, "end": 672.836, "text": "But the gratuity, the tip after the fact is not prosecuted.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 672.816, "end": 676.019, "text": "or under the federal statute for the state and local government employee.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 676.199, "end": 682.065, "text": "Now, there is a federal statute on gratuities for federal employees, so it's still illegal for them.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 682.145, "end": 685.849, "text": "But basically, the Supreme Court said they're going to leave that issue up to the states.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 686.529, "end": 688.151, "text": "I find that case problematic.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 688.551, "end": 699.802, "text": "I think the even worst case, though, was decided well over 10 years ago involving the former governor of Virginia who exchanged cash for official meetings.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 700.343, "end": 701.524, "text": "You pay money.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 701.504, "end": 703.186, "text": "you get to meet the governor.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 704.127, "end": 710.696, "text": "And that's what the government proved when they convicted the governor of Virginia under the federal bribery statute.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 710.756, "end": 715.783, "text": "And the Supreme Court came along and said, now paying for access to a public official, that's not bribery.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 715.883, "end": 728.66, "text": "It's only bribery if you are able to get the public official to agree to a particular official action as a quid broke well for a payment, a bribe.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 728.64, "end": 732.385, "text": "But payment for access to public official is not a bribe.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 733.126, "end": 738.173, "text": "Well, this is really a quite narrow definition of bribery.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 738.573, "end": 742.559, "text": "Now, it's not surprising the Supreme Court might come down that way because you think about it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 742.579, "end": 755.376, "text": "We think about all these campaign contributors are getting access all the time to members of Congress and the president of the United States and others by donating extra money to the Republican or the Democratic Senatorial Committee or some other group.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 756.517, "end": 758.58, "text": "You pay money to get access.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 758.56, "end": 765.431, "text": "And, of course, the Supreme Court justices themselves have the billionaires who want to take them on their yacht excursions when the term is over.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 766.452, "end": 774.825, "text": "And so, yes, I can see why the court might come down where it does, but the public, I don't think sees it that way.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 775.185, "end": 776.067, "text": "This is bribery,", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 776.327, "end": 778.931, "text": "exchanging official meeting for cash.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 778.951, "end": 783.017, "text": "Which a meeting is an official act, as far as I'm concerned.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 783.418, "end": 785.922, "text": "We're going to come right back with Professor Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 785.942, "end": 787.284, "text": "We're going to get into...", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 787.264, "end": 794.593, "text": "the potential for cryptocurrency to explode the levels of corruption here in the United States.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 795.034, "end": 796.796, "text": "If you're going to want to stay tuned, my name is Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 796.816, "end": 799.559, "text": "You are listening to the Civic Media Radio Network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 799.639, "end": 801.822, "text": "This is our cryptocurrency special.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 801.922, "end": 802.503, "text": "Don't go anywhere.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 802.984, "end": 803.524, "text": "I'm Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 803.564, "end": 812.996, "text": "You're listening to the Civic Media Radio Network, our special guest for the entire hour on this, our cryptocurrency episode is Professor", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 812.976, "end": 814.218, "text": "Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 814.338, "end": 818.282, "text": "He is a law professor and expert in corruption at the University of Minnesota.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 818.343, "end": 823.128, "text": "He is the former chief White House ethics lawyer in the George W. Bush administration.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 823.168, "end": 825.611, "text": "He is a self-described independent.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 827.193, "end": 835.403, "text": "And he also has served as the vice chair of the Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, also known as CREW.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 835.764, "end": 842.532, "text": "We're going to talk about one of the lawsuits that CREW brought during the first Trump administration.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 842.512, "end": 871.364, "text": "But I wanted to finish our discussion about paying for access And it's one of those things that I think it's so prevalent these days Or the idea that huge campaign donors will of course get get get the meeting right they their phone calls will get answered I think the idea that rich people can pay for access large businesses can pay for access is one of the things that has led", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 871.344, "end": 880.061, "text": "regular folks to feel so disengaged, disenchanted and angry about elected officials writ large.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 880.883, "end": 885.973, "text": "Tell me more about your thinking about the problem with paying for access.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 886.995, "end": 893.748, "text": "Well, it's been long understood that paying money to get access to public official is corrupt.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 893.728, "end": 902.161, "text": "And I think it quite clearly meets the definition of bribery, common law as the term was understood at the time of the founding of our country.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 902.963, "end": 913.94, "text": "And the Constitution does specifically mention bribery as an impeachable offense for a president, a vice president, a cabinet member, a judge or justice.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 914.481, "end": 921.492, "text": "We should keep in mind that the founders were very, very angry at attempts to extract cash.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 921.472, "end": 923.634, "text": "in return for official meetings.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 923.674, "end": 932.224, "text": "There was a big diplomatic fuss scandal with France in the 1790s.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 932.584, "end": 947.06, "text": "The United States sent diplomats over to France to meet with the government to try to avoid war with France and avoid getting entangled in the war between France and Great Britain, yet another war between France and Great Britain.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 947.04, "end": 956.415, "text": "And Taliran, the foreign minister of the French government, the directory at the time, this was after the king had been off the throne in the French Revolution.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 957.076, "end": 974.084, "text": "And the Taliran said, it made it very clear that nobody can meet with him unless he paid off his agents, his bag men, diplomatic officials, French diplomatic officials who are simply labeled with the letters X, Y, and Z. It was known as the XYZ affair.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 974.064, "end": 978.411, "text": "Thomas Jefferson was absolutely furious because he was not president yet.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 978.431, "end": 987.544, "text": "This was during the Adams administration, but he was behind efforts to try to reach out to France to avoid the United States getting entangled in that war.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 987.965, "end": 996.057, "text": "We send the diplomats all the way over and they're being told you can't see the foreign minister unless you pay them off, personally pay them off.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 996.138, "end": 1003.028, "text": "The American diplomats came home and the Adams administration ended up in what we call the quasi war with France.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1003.008, "end": 1026.476, "text": "So this was corruption of the worst sort had serious consequences for the relationship between the United States government and France This corruption was on the French side But it shows how the founders were absolutely disgusted with his idea of paying money to get access to public official Now how in the world would they have tolerated this from the governor of Virginia?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1026.516, "end": 1030.1, "text": "And so well the governor of Virginia could do that which they thought was corrupt", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1030.08, "end": 1057.892, "text": "uh for tally around the french prime foreign minister i i don't think so and i think that they would have said that a governor virginia who asked for cash in return for meetings with the governor was corrupt and should be thrown out of office and yet the u.s supreme court in interpreting the criminal statute uh we should keep in mind it is a criminal statute defining bribery said the governor of virginia could not be criminally charged for bribery for demanding payment", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1057.872, "end": 1060.136, "text": "in return for official meetings.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1061.639, "end": 1067.571, "text": "Once again, this leads up in the question of whether impeachment proceedings are appropriate.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1068.032, "end": 1080.436, "text": "Obviously in a state, you would impeach the governor under state law, but in the federal government, if people are paying cash for access to a public official, does that justify impeachment?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1080.416, "end": 1087.447, "text": "What if the president of the United States issues a meme coin and then has a dinner for people invest the most amount of money in his meme coin?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1087.627, "end": 1094.077, "text": "In fact, putting money in his pocket, which is what President Trump did just a month or so ago.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1095.078, "end": 1096.58, "text": "This is very, very troubling.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1097.782, "end": 1106.916, "text": "There's payment of access, payment of cash, for access to a public official, whether it's campaign contributions, buying a meme coin or anything else.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1107.568, "end": 1113.038, "text": "books that's Professor Richard Painter of the University of Minnesota Law School.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1113.118, "end": 1116.824, "text": "I have so many questions that are popping into my head, sir.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1118.107, "end": 1132.292, "text": "When we look back at Trump 1.0, the problems are still legion, but they seem almost trite in comparison to what we are seeing now.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1132.272, "end": 1138.961, "text": "I want to get into this a bit with you, including what I'm going to call out loud extortion of law firms and universities.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1141.244, "end": 1161.252, "text": "But you, as one of the key leaders of crew, again, that is citizens for responsibility and ethics in Washington, you sued President Donald Trump during his first administration in 2017 for violations of the emoluments clause.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1161.232, "end": 1167.059, "text": "This seems to be such a, like of course that was a violation.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1167.079, "end": 1170.382, "text": "I want to ask you, what came of that lawsuit?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1170.423, "end": 1174.627, "text": "We're going to start at the end of that story and then work our way backwards.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1175.248, "end": 1185.7, "text": "Did Donald Trump, and we only have about a minute left, did Donald Trump end up having to divest himself of additional assets or do anything differently because of the lawsuit?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1185.68, "end": 1190.086, "text": "No, he dragged it out through the courts, as the courts are, get about standing.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1190.127, "end": 1194.813, "text": "They found the crew did not have standing, neither did Democrats in Congress.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1194.954, "end": 1200.842, "text": "Businesses that competed with Donald Trump apparently did have standing, but it took three years to sort that all out.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1200.862, "end": 1207.412, "text": "And he dragged it out another year, and then the Supreme Court of the United States dismissed the lawsuit when he left office in 2021.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1207.392, "end": 1209.475, "text": "The lawsuits have not been refiled.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1209.675, "end": 1214.321, "text": "They could be, but once again, we'd have to find a plaintiff who had standing to sue.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1214.661, "end": 1218.326, "text": "And the courts are very strict about who gets to sue and who doesn't.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1218.346, "end": 1218.947, "text": "We'll be right back.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1218.987, "end": 1220.509, "text": "You're not going to want to go anywhere.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1220.549, "end": 1222.492, "text": "We're getting into the meat points.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1222.572, "end": 1224.214, "text": "Donald Trump's stable coin.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1224.574, "end": 1229.18, "text": "What does all of this mean to regular people, you and your family here in Wisconsin?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1229.2, "end": 1229.841, "text": "Stay tuned.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1229.861, "end": 1230.542, "text": "I'm Maggie Don.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1230.602, "end": 1235.268, "text": "This is our cryptocurrency special here on the Civic Media Radio Network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1235.824, "end": 1237.206, "text": "Welcome back, everybody.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1237.887, "end": 1238.408, "text": "I'm Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1238.428, "end": 1242.535, "text": "You're listening to the Maggie Dawn Show here on the Civic Media Radio Network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1243.055, "end": 1246.2, "text": "We have an expert in corruption with us this afternoon.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1246.26, "end": 1247.923, "text": "His name is Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1247.963, "end": 1250.768, "text": "He's a professor of law at the University of Minnesota.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1251.188, "end": 1256.837, "text": "He is the former chief White House ethics lawyer under the George W. Bush administration.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1257.258, "end": 1261.204, "text": "He is a self-described political independent.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1261.184, "end": 1265.931, "text": "And I'm going to call you just a straight talker, sir, because you call them like you see them.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1266.051, "end": 1269.396, "text": "And I think we need to return to a bit of that.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1270.418, "end": 1284.498, "text": "You, as one of the leaders of the citizens for responsibility and ethics in Washington back in May, excuse me, January of 2017, when Donald Trump first took office, you sued Mr. Trump for violating the emoluments clause.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1285.039, "end": 1288.484, "text": "What is the emoluments clause and why is it important?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1288.464, "end": 1300.919, "text": "Well, the founders were well aware of the risk that United States government officials be corrupted by other nations through various payments, profits and benefits.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1301.019, "end": 1310.209, "text": "That's when a monument is a profit or advantage when you look up the word a monument, Dr. Samuel Johnson, 1755 dictionary, the English language.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1311.11, "end": 1315.956, "text": "And the framers were very aware of this problem because the Europeans were doing it all the time.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1315.936, "end": 1323.448, "text": "The French king was always trying to bribe various officials in the English government, improbably vice versa.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1323.489, "end": 1330.16, "text": "Whenever there was an election for a new king, Poland, they elected the kings of Poland at various times.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1330.18, "end": 1333.605, "text": "The Russians and others would get involved and pan people off.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1334.447, "end": 1342.5, "text": "And so this was very common where the public officials in one European country would be on the payroll of another one.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1342.48, "end": 1345.266, "text": "And so the founder said, oh, you're not doing that over here.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1345.787, "end": 1360.5, "text": "If you're going to be a United States government official, this doesn't just apply to the president, but anyone holding an office of trust with the United States government, you are not going to take any gifts, any titles, or any emolument that is a profit or benefit from a foreign government.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1360.48, "end": 1366.17, "text": "And that would include profits and benefits from companies controlled by foreign governments or sovereign wealth funds.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1366.651, "end": 1375.487, "text": "So for example, if you're president of the United States, you shouldn't be able to set up a cryptocurrency firm and have a sovereign wealth fund then invest in your cryptocurrency firm.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1375.547, "end": 1377.831, "text": "That would be in a monument.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1378.011, "end": 1382.98, "text": "We had this problem in the first Trump administration, mostly with respect to hotels.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1382.96, "end": 1405.204, "text": "In golf courses and various real estate deals or deals where they put the Donald Trump's name on a building somewhere in the world and then he Miraculously get paid for that But now he's into cryptocurrency and so we may have a lot more in monuments going on And also by the way, I'd say a free airplane from Qatar there that's 747", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1405.184, "end": 1430.196, "text": "Yeah, that that's for use of the airplane there That would be a monument a gift from foreign government all that covered by their monuments close prohibited without the consent of Congress That's what the founder said you go to Congress you get consent So Donald Trump wants all these of monuments from foreign governments and gifts and the airplane and the rest of it You can go to Republican control Congress and ask for a resolution approving", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1430.176, "end": 1433.921, "text": "his receipt of the gifts in a monument.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1433.942, "end": 1438.809, "text": "It's like Benjamin Franklin did during the Articles of Confederation, which had a similar provision.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1439.249, "end": 1444.817, "text": "He got a snuff box with a bunch of diamonds on it from the king of France when he was ambassador of France.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1444.858, "end": 1449.364, "text": "And he went to the Congress and he said, hey, could I have permission to keep the snuff box?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1449.945, "end": 1451.107, "text": "And Congress gave him permission.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1451.127, "end": 1452.028, "text": "They said, it's okay.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1452.048, "end": 1454.772, "text": "You keep Louis VI's snuff box there.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1454.752, "end": 1456.934, "text": "Uh, but that was important.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1456.954, "end": 1459.497, "text": "I mean, Louis the 16th was a bit controversial.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1459.517, "end": 1461.019, "text": "He ended up getting his head chopped up", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1461.099, "end": 1461.139, "text": "in", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1461.179, "end": 1462.12, "text": "the next revolution.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1463.161, "end": 1472.132, "text": "Uh, you know, we can't have diplomats taking money from, uh, foreign leaders or gifts or snuff boxes or a 747 without the consent of Congress.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1472.692, "end": 1474.054, "text": "So that's what Donald Trump bought it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1474.374, "end": 1483.284, "text": "But I don't think Speaker Johnson is really enthusiastic about a resolution in front of Congress to, uh, give Donald Trump, uh,", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1483.264, "end": 1490.655, "text": "permission to accept the 747 Cotter with same country that has funded Hamas to tune of a couple billion dollars.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1491.717, "end": 1495.382, "text": "This is a Congress that doesn't even want to confront the situation with F. Steve Piles.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1495.943, "end": 1497.245, "text": "So what does Donald Trump do?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1497.265, "end": 1499.308, "text": "He just wants to go ahead and take the plan anyway.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1499.728, "end": 1500.93, "text": "And the various other amendments.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1501.03, "end": 1501.251, "text": "Why?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1501.271, "end": 1507.62, "text": "Because there's no way to enforce the amendments clause if he can't get someone in court withstanding to a suit.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1507.6, "end": 1511.725, "text": "And they would not let Cruz, that isn't responsible in ethics in Washington, have standing.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1512.105, "end": 1515.289, "text": "They would not let the Democrats in the House and Senate have standing.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1515.329, "end": 1517.752, "text": "They just missed that lawsuit down in District of Columbia.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1518.233, "end": 1521.757, "text": "I guess the business that competes with Donald Trump, they have standing according to the courts.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1522.458, "end": 1527.344, "text": "Well, I don't know what we're going to do, because who's going to be competing with his 747 from Qatar?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1527.444, "end": 1530.448, "text": "I don't think that was the purpose of the Miami's clause.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1530.468, "end": 1537.156, "text": "The purpose of the Miami's clause was to protect our government from under influence, from foreign governments.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1537.136, "end": 1548.171, "text": "Giving gifts and profits and benefits to United States government officials including our president And it's not being complied with that's a serious problem", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1549.353, "end": 1563.353, "text": "Yeah, it's a conveniently narrow definition of who would be able to sue under the emoluments clause that has effectively rendered it annulity To disastrous effect somewhat argue and this professor painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1563.393, "end": 1565.876, "text": "This isn't something that is specific", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1565.856, "end": 1594.676, "text": "to a Republican president if these things that are framers thought to include like the emoluments clause cannot be enforced the next time again I I I always want to try to take this out of the partisan context this isn't good for democracy small d no matter what party you may or a listener may find themselves affiliated with at any point in time and", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1594.656, "end": 1617.86, "text": "I would offer I think on the international stage when you look at foreign policy it is credibility reducing the United States as honest broker that you know what do we stand for when we tell the truth we stand up for the little guy we do hard things these some mythologies about being an American well", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1618.064, "end": 1647.764, "text": "We start losing credibility when our president starts taking gifts from foreign leaders or accepting hacking influence to you know impact an election from Russia These things to me Are are deeply important in this moment, but they are deeply important always and Americans of good faith should be able to demand better of our elected officials", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1647.744, "end": 1654.631, "text": "Sir, what do you make of Donald Trump's stance and the use of executive orders targeting law firms and universities?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1655.451, "end": 1663.359, "text": "Well, let's start with the law firms, because what he's clearly doing with the law firms is retaliating against law firms for representing clients.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1663.579, "end": 1665.982, "text": "And some of those clients were his political opponents.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1666.762, "end": 1676.612, "text": "In other cases, retaliating against law firms because partners of those firms have left the firm to go and work on federal investigations of Donald Trump.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1676.592, "end": 1678.815, "text": "And so he's retaliating against their law firm.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1679.696, "end": 1693.792, "text": "And in a democracy, it's absolutely critical that people have the right to counsel, not just Republicans, but also Democrats and independents, such as myself, have the right to counsel.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1693.852, "end": 1697.836, "text": "And there are going to be contested elections, such as Bush versus Gore.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1698.657, "end": 1701.681, "text": "But both Bush and Gore were entitled to counsel.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1701.701, "end": 1704.484, "text": "And we can't have a situation where the winner", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1704.464, "end": 1710.211, "text": "can come in and then retaliate against the lawyers who represented the loser.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1711.472, "end": 1719.942, "text": "And if Donald Trump beat Hillary Clinton in 2016 because he won the electoral college, he didn't win the popular vote, he then goes after Hillary Clinton as the lawyers.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1721.404, "end": 1731.396, "text": "He goes after lawyers who represented the other side in his failed effort to contest the 2020 election, which he clearly lost to Joe Biden.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1731.376, "end": 1740.488, "text": "And this is an infringement on the right to counsel, which is a fundamental infringement on First Amendment right to petition the government for redress of grievances.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1740.568, "end": 1755.168, "text": "If I can't hire a lawyer to go on a court and argue my case, because my lawyer is afraid of retaliation against themselves and their law firm by the president of the United States, for practical purposes, lost the right to counsel.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1755.228, "end": 1760.996, "text": "Now, I think the courts are realizing this and are issuing quite a few orders against President Trump.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1760.976, "end": 1766.304, "text": "on his retaliation against Perkins Cooley coming in burling and some of these other law firms.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1766.364, "end": 1778.02, "text": "I think he's going to lose those cases, but it's done a lot of damage in the meantime, his attacks on the lawyers and the right to counsel.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1779.182, "end": 1783.108, "text": "The university is somewhat different situation because there there's an enormous amount of federal funding.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1783.128, "end": 1786.212, "text": "I mean, law firms not getting any money from the federal government.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1786.192, "end": 1791.821, "text": "But we've had a lot of federal funding, mostly for scientific research in our major universities.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1792.622, "end": 1802.918, "text": "But it's quite clear that President Trump is saying, look, I'm going to cut off that federal funding unless you cut a deal that makes me look good, that accomplishes some of my political objectives.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1802.958, "end": 1811.812, "text": "So he's using scientific research funding, which we would think whether we should support, whether we're Democrats or Republicans.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1811.792, "end": 1815.175, "text": "It's good to fund scientific research.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1815.235, "end": 1820.32, "text": "We can debate about where that research should be spent and how, what type of universities.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1820.42, "end": 1823.203, "text": "I'd like to see more money going into the big public universities.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1823.784, "end": 1824.144, "text": "I've worked", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1824.164, "end": 1828.548, "text": "in public education for 30 years, rather than the big IVs, but you know, we put all that aside.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1828.969, "end": 1835.956, "text": "Bottom line is, should that be a political weapon in order to get a university to give in to Donald Trump on completely unrelated matters?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1836.937, "end": 1840.42, "text": "And that's what he's doing there.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1840.4, "end": 1849.93, "text": "What Harvard University has done is taken the court, because his demands are really quite excessive with respect to Harvard, with respect to the federal funds.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1850.77, "end": 1852.853, "text": "And we're going to see where that goes.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1853.533, "end": 1855.675, "text": "I think they're likely to succeed in the long run.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1855.715, "end": 1859.019, "text": "But he's doing quite a bit of damage, of course, to Harvard.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1859.039, "end": 1861.001, "text": "And there are other universities that are not as wealthy.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1861.781, "end": 1868.308, "text": "They're going to be in a position where they need to cave in and give Donald Trump what he wants.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1868.288, "end": 1876.416, "text": "In the middle of all this, he's using the controversies over anti-Semitism to score political points.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1877.376, "end": 1885.904, "text": "I sometimes wonder how much the administration really cares about the problem of anti-Semitism itself or whether it's really just being used as a political weapon.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1886.885, "end": 1889.788, "text": "So we'll see what some of those cases above the universities go.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1891.009, "end": 1898.276, "text": "With Columbia University agreeing to effectively pay $200 million,", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1898.256, "end": 1919.46, "text": "just breathtaking I think the chilling effects of all of these actions are really striking at some of our most closely held values right that that we want to fund science we believe in the right to counsel and the right to free speech and yet that those are the values", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1919.44, "end": 1921.542, "text": "that are actually being attacked.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1922.022, "end": 1936.176, "text": "And we have to, I think, get to a point where we can set aside the politics, small p, and the personalities to see how our values are either being upheld or eroded under this particular president.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1936.577, "end": 1940.42, "text": "Our guest this hour is Professor Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1940.48, "end": 1944.825, "text": "He is the former White House chief ethics lawyer under George W. Bush.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1944.865, "end": 1948.468, "text": "He is a political independent, and he is our special guest.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1948.448, "end": 1951.135, "text": "here on the Maggie Dawn show for this hour.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1951.335, "end": 1956.148, "text": "Professor Painter, is the Trump administration the most corrupt administration in modern American history?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 1957.21, "end": 1961.181, "text": "Well, they're certainly, they're trying to get that prize there.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1961.221, "end": 1965.652, "text": "I mean, Richard Nixon was, was a pretty bad situation.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1965.632, "end": 1993.924, "text": "With what happened with Watergate and the cover up and he'd fire people who politically, you know, disagree with him or whatever And so Richard Nixon pushed the limits of the law as well But he didn't have the personal financial conflicts of interest to the extent that Donald Trump did And also you had both a Supreme Court and Congress that old me is willing to stand up to him The Supreme Court of the United States said Nixon had to turn over those White House tapes to the special prosecutor", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1993.904, "end": 1999.513, "text": "When Nixon fired the special prosecutor, Archie Cox, Congress said, hey, you're going to have to put another one in there.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 1999.533, "end": 2000.574, "text": "We're going to impeach it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2000.594, "end": 2010.61, "text": "And then finally, Senator Goldwater and some other Republicans went over to the White House and said, it's not a resign, Mr. President, because the votes were there in the Senate to convict him if he was impeached.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2010.63, "end": 2012.533, "text": "So they stood up to him.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2012.553, "end": 2014.596, "text": "I'm not so sure we'd get that today.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2014.736, "end": 2024.568, "text": "Folks, again, that is Professor Richard Painter of the University of Minnesota Law School, former Chief White House Ethics Lawyer in the George W. Bush administration.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2026.171, "end": 2030.776, "text": "When we come back, I want us to think about what do we do about this?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2031.617, "end": 2043.092, "text": "What should regular people be asking their elected officials to do to rein in corruption at every level, whether Democrat or Republican?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2043.072, "end": 2044.093, "text": "Don't go anywhere, folks.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2044.193, "end": 2044.914, "text": "I'm Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2045.454, "end": 2047.817, "text": "This is the Pacific Media Radio Network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2047.837, "end": 2050.219, "text": "Welcome back, everybody, and welcome if you're just joining us.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2050.239, "end": 2054.103, "text": "This special episode of the Maggie Dawn Show today talking about cryptocurrencies.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2054.163, "end": 2065.213, "text": "In this last hour, we have been talking with University of Minnesota law professor Richard Painter, who's the former chief White House ethics lawyer under the George W. Bush administration.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2065.273, "end": 2072.26, "text": "He is a political independent and he has worked as one of the leaders of citizens", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2072.24, "end": 2076.265, "text": "for responsibility and ethics in Washington, also known as crew.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2076.446, "end": 2083.355, "text": "And just a few weeks ago, he was testifying before Congress was considering regulating cryptocurrencies.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2084.256, "end": 2094.77, "text": "Sir, in my mind, Donald Trump's issuance and his wife's issuance of meme coins, which basically opens him to all sorts of influence peddling.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2094.79, "end": 2101.94, "text": "You can basically write a check to Donald Trump by buying his meme coin and his new creation of", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2101.92, "end": 2119.763, "text": "a stable coin, the technicalities of which we talked with our guest last hour about, but the stable coin is being used in multi-billion dollar deals by a sovereign, a foreign sovereign wealth fund.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2121.446, "end": 2126.372, "text": "Again, this seems to me to be out loud and proud corruption.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2126.352, "end": 2127.713, "text": "the buying of influence.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2128.194, "end": 2134.62, "text": "Certainly a president using the office of the president to enrich himself and his family.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2134.66, "end": 2154.98, "text": "What should people be asking their elected officials to do about corruption writ large, but specifically the, I think, fairly significant threat that cryptocurrencies pose because they are very", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2154.96, "end": 2156.462, "text": "non-transparent.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2157.263, "end": 2160.046, "text": "What should we be asking our elected officials to do about this?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2160.687, "end": 2165.292, "text": "Well, the cryptocurrency presents multiple problems.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2166.113, "end": 2178.348, "text": "First is, yes, it is not transparent and payments from foreign governments, foreign sovereign wealth funds can be made to American politicians, including the president of the United States without anybody knowing about it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2178.548, "end": 2181.892, "text": "It's going to be very, very difficult to monitor what's going on.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2181.872, "end": 2184.495, "text": "with these cryptocurrency payments and investments.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2185.096, "end": 2191.663, "text": "Only if there's a federal criminal investigation can those payments be tracked down, maybe by federal prosecutors.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2192.043, "end": 2193.185, "text": "And that's not sufficient.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2193.325, "end": 2194.606, "text": "So that's problem number one.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2195.067, "end": 2198.631, "text": "The second problem is that cryptocurrency is not well regulated.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2198.711, "end": 2203.937, "text": "They're looking at bills now to regulate cryptocurrency, to say they're regulating cryptocurrency.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2204.357, "end": 2206.82, "text": "Those bills are drafted by the industry.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2206.832, "end": 2218.528, "text": "And that's why we have the Senate Banking Committee here in two weeks ago when I went and testified with CEOs of cryptocurrency companies sitting right next to me at the witness table.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2219.189, "end": 2225.078, "text": "Those companies have plowed enormous amounts of money into campaign contributions to Congress.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2225.118, "end": 2230.906, "text": "That's why Senator John Kennedy, Louisiana was very sensitive about that because the campaign contributions are all sensitive.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2230.966, "end": 2235.412, "text": "And cryptocurrency is not well-regulated.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2235.392, "end": 2242.181, "text": "And will we have cryptocurrency become another unregulated financial instrument that causes an economic crisis?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2242.221, "end": 2242.982, "text": "We're not there yet.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2243.062, "end": 2257.62, "text": "We don't have the magnitude of the trading volume of cryptocurrency that we did in securities based swap agreements and mortgage backed securities before the 2008 financial crisis, but we could get there and right now we've got the federal government.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2257.6, "end": 2284.612, "text": "at the pass of the president of the united states urging banks to invest more in crypto uh fanny may and freddy max said you can use crypto to prove as part of your assets to get a home mortgage uh we may even have a federal government crypto reserve uh with the federal government is buying crypto obviously all this pressure on the buy side is going to push prices up president trump owns crypto so of course he's going to benefit when prices go up", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2284.592, "end": 2311.796, "text": "but they could this by a government sponsored pump and dump scheme where that which goes up eventually comes down and we've seen this so many times in our economy with unregulated financial interests we start with the stock market the 1920s before the crash in 1939 they said they regulated the banks in the 1927 McFadden Act and as I told Congress Senate just two weeks ago", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2311.776, "end": 2313.318, "text": "Of course, that didn't work.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2313.338, "end": 2315.802, "text": "Just three years later, the whole banking system collapsed.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2315.842, "end": 2318.066, "text": "They allowed the banks to write the regulations.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2318.787, "end": 2327.44, "text": "We allowed the securities industry to write the rules on securities-based swap agreements and mortgage-backed securities during deregulation in the Clinton years.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2327.901, "end": 2330.084, "text": "A lot of this was the fault of the Clinton administration.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2330.104, "end": 2330.184, "text": "And", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2330.225, "end": 2330.465, "text": "then the", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2330.525, "end": 2332.468, "text": "Bush years, they didn't re-regulate any of it.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2332.969, "end": 2335.733, "text": "And of course, we got the 2008 collapse.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2335.753, "end": 2337.636, "text": "Do we really want to do all that again?", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2337.616, "end": 2338.657, "text": "I don't think so.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2338.677, "end": 2341.982, "text": "And the crypto industry's been trying to buy access to both political parties.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2342.463, "end": 2343.905, "text": "Just think Sam Bankman Freed.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2343.965, "end": 2354.018, "text": "All that money raised by Bankman Freed, his mother, Barbara Freed, had a huge pack, giving enormous amounts of money to the Democrats called Mind the Gap pack.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2354.038, "end": 2357.083, "text": "She was pressuring him to put more FTX money into that.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2358.004, "end": 2363.852, "text": "He was testifying in front of Congress, telling them how to regulate the crypto industry months before he was arrested.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2364.913, "end": 2366.916, "text": "And then he goes off to the slammer.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2366.896, "end": 2373.063, "text": "And a lot of them now are sort of putting on the red hat, swapping the blue hat for the red hat that Donald Trump's in.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2373.664, "end": 2378.911, "text": "Even Bankman Freed is giving jailhouse interviews to Tucker Carlson and talking about how great Trump is.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2379.431, "end": 2388.342, "text": "And his father, Joe Bankman, wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post saying that Trump's solving wealth fund was a brilliant idea and we ought to substitute it for the corporate aid cup tax.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2388.362, "end": 2393.268, "text": "I mean, these are people who are flaming liberals just two or three years ago, but they've all gone maga.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2393.248, "end": 2406.625, "text": "So you could clearly see an industry, both the people in prison and the people who may be honest, but who don't understand the need for sound regulation, trying to buy access to the United States government.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2407.486, "end": 2411.231, "text": "And I am very worried about how this is going to end up for our financial system.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2411.452, "end": 2413.274, "text": "We don't figure out how to regulate crypto.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2415.817, "end": 2418.02, "text": "Professor, we have just about a minute left.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2418.0, "end": 2419.722, "text": "Thank you for sharing your expertise.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2419.963, "end": 2434.241, "text": "My final question, based on your last statement, are we careening towards an economic and broader crisis in this country if folks don't stand up and vote their values and demand more of our elected officials?", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2435.122, "end": 2439.828, "text": "We could have an economic crisis if we don't focus on the regulation of crypto.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2439.808, "end": 2446.599, "text": "a currency and not let people like Sam Bankman freed, advised Congress on how to have to draft the regulations.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2447.08, "end": 2455.394, "text": "We're certainly going to have a climate crisis if we don't address the influence of the fossil fuel industry and try to move toward cleaner sources of energy.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2455.474, "end": 2462.346, "text": "We haven't talked about war and the influence of the military industrial complex, which President Eisenhower pointed out in 1961.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2463.428, "end": 2465.972, "text": "We now have one trillion dollar defense budget.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2465.952, "end": 2469.276, "text": "And we're getting into all sorts of wars.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2469.336, "end": 2474.903, "text": "Apparently, the president will go to war whenever he feels like it, although that's not what the Constitution says.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2474.923, "end": 2483.614, "text": "So, yes, we've got a number of crises we're going to confront if we don't rein in abuses of presidential power and corruption in all three branches of our government.", "speaker": "Professor Richard Painter" }, { "start": 2484.735, "end": 2486.417, "text": "Thank you, Professor Richard Painter.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2487.058, "end": 2487.639, "text": "I'm Maggie Dawn.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" }, { "start": 2487.659, "end": 2490.342, "text": "You've been listening to the Civic Media Radio Network.", "speaker": "Maggie Dawn (host)" } ]